This whole debate over the debt ceiling debate is very welcome, even if the substance has been nothing short of silly. Really, it’s like arguing over whether or not we should use scotch tape or masking tape to cover up the hole in the Titanic, and whether to use a thimble or a teaspoon to bail her out. But at least we’re doing it, and the debate is here to stay, at least for awhile. But does it really matter at the end of the day?
The premise of the argument so far, at least as it’s been posited in the media and punditocracy in most places, is really wrong. In fact, I can’t say that I’ve heard anyone really get down to the brass tacks of it.
The question is not whether we make government smaller – that’s inevitable. The question is whether we take it down in a steep but controlled descent, or whether we just let it collapse around our heads. I would certainly hope for the former, but it seems that everyone in Washington is willing to do it the hard way.
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I think that Congressional Republicans, tea party movement types and otherwise, should have voted solidly for John Boehner’s last two plans. I still think it’s better to extend the debt ceiling for a little longer right now than go into default, and as a political matter, it made no sense to kneecap the Majority Leader politically.
But I understand those who voted against it, because THEY understand what most of them don’t want to say out loud – we’re doomed without MAJOR cuts in spending. And no, that doesn’t mean reductions in increases, which is all we’re getting now. They understand that the question isn’t to default or not, but WHEN we will default without major austerity measures, including major changes (reductions in benefits) to Social Security and other entitlement programs. They understand that really and truly, we’re much closer than anyone wants to admit to being out of other people’s money, and that applying for another credit card will only make things worse in the end. And frankly, default later won’t be any better than default now, and will likley be a great deal worse. SO there was a little part of me that kind of hoped they wouldn’t make a deal at all.
Freedom, as the song goes, is just another word for nuthun’ left to lose. So if the economic collapse is inevitable with the current Boehner plan or without it, what’s the point of voting for it, or any other compromise that doesn’t solve the problem? And let’s be clear – any plan that thinks borrowing ten years worth of spending in just two years is part of the problem, not the solution.
The only reason I’m glad it passed is because otherwise Republicans will be blamed, rightly or wrongly, for any consequences that come from the default. And the argument that the pain of ripping off the band-aid now is better than slowly peeling it off later is tough love at its hardest to sell. Keep the full faith and credit of the country in tact long enough to act real spending problems after successful 2012 elections. Think of it as the careful wiring and even added supports building demolishers use to make sure their dynamited buildings come down safely, as opposed to just tossing in a bunch of explosives right away. It’s like using methadone as a stepping stone to get off heroin. It really is important that we make a controlled descent, rather than simply hastening collapse.
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But at the end of the day, all these “unreasonable” and “terroristic” Republicans are right. We spend far more than we take in. That can’t last forever. And things that can’t last forever, don’t.
That includes the Social Security. And Medicare. And the US Economy. It even includes the US. You can’t keep adding over a Trillion dollars to the debt every single year and expect everything to go along swmingly. Eventually, someone calls the debt in, or you run out of lenders. Either way, there is a hard, hard ceiling on the status quo. Democrats who crow about “saving” Social Security and Medicare because they didn’t allow an unsustainable program to be reformed are simply deluding themselves (not to mention the public) and guaranteeing the total collapse of necessary safety net.
Seriously – if you were bent on destroying Social Security and Medicare and Pell Grants and every other thing so many people want the government to be in the business of, could you do better than our current political class is doing now?
I’ve read a lot of Democrats complain that comparing it to “how families have to do it” is unfair, and besides – don’t we go into debt all the time for our families’ benefit with mortgages and car loans? Anyone who proffers this argument should immediately be blacklisted by every bank in the country from ever qualifying for a home or auto loan. The obvious answer is, of course, that unlike the Federal Government, my debts get smaller over time as I pay them off. And if they didn’t, I’d lose my house and my car and probably everything else I own to pay off the debts. In other words, my personal economy would collapse, just like the national economy (and all those beloved entitlement programs) will.
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I’ve also read a lot of Democrats (and others) giving the tired, “Yeah, well, Republicans are just as guilty!”
OK. Let’s just ignore that who controlled Congress in those years matters at least as much as who was in the White House, and ignore that President Obama is responsible for about as much debt in 2.5 years as President Bush was in all 8 of his years.
Fine. You’re right. Democrats and Republicans alike kept issuing themselves new credit cards when they maxed out all the old ones. Bad Republicans! Naughty! Shame!
So what?
Since when does getting better about adhering to one’s stated principles considered a bad thing? If a sinner stops sinning, is he now a hypocrite? So now prior bad acts must be forever adhered to? Should former drug addicts NOT urge other people to stay off the smack? What possible sense does THAT make?
And really, if Democrats are going to run around criticizing Republicans for being profligate spenders, shouldn’t they, ya know, not be four times as profligate? Are these people really this dense? Or do they think we are? Either way…
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Ultimately, this debt compromise plan is only a stopgap. I am curious that no one has pressed senior Democrats on what they think the endgame is. How high should taxes be? What’s the upper limit? When should the borrowing stop?
What’s your plan, Mr. President? Details, please.
Of course, there will be no such plan, because no such plan is possible. You cannot borrow your way out of debt. The President could tax every last red cent of the entire nation’s Gross Domestic Product, and at current spending and borrowing rates, we’d be right back at the same debt level in about ten years!
And even if we balanced the budget tomorrow, we’d still be adding almost half a trillion a year to the debt just on interest alone. And then there’s the $100 Trillion (can that number even be comprehended?) in unfunded future liabilities…
Maybe we are doomed.
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I don’t think anyone at this point really understands – or wants to – just how bad things are, and will continue to get. A “Trillion” is really, really hard for those of us without astrophysics degrees (and even then!) to really fathom. And there’s no free ride on the way out – we’re going to pay for the past couple of generations’ recklessness, led by Democrats and Republicans alike.
But the alternative of ignoring the problem until it literally destroys the country is no alternative at all. Let’s hope for all our sakes that those totally unreasonable hostage taking terrorist tea party Republicans keep up the good work.
It’s not like they – or the rest of the world – have anything to lose.
Way to examine both sides, but don’t you think the political rancor and unwillingness to compromise has become the “new status quo” for American politics? We saw this with the budget and now the debt ceiling. Orrin, how do we overcome the polarization that is crippling this country? A “D” and an “R” after a name seem to inspire the other to fight harder against the other. I don’t think it is going to get better and, in fact, think it will get much worse. I have given up on any good ever coming from the leadership and elected officials in this country. There is no longer middle ground…no one wants to compromise even a little bit, and they will form their position even if it adversely impacts families just so they can make a point. Why do our current political leaders even serve? What do they really think they are doing? Do they even know how to see the country below the 100,000ft level? You get it, but I suspect at one time they did too…but it appears when they breath air inside the Beltway, all of them that is true American seems to be cut off from all common sense. People like Boehner and Reid are lifelong politicians that don’t know what it means to live in America. They live in their political haven and play God with the rest of us. I guess what I am trying to say is that while you seem to truly understand the issue and even embrace parts of both sides, we are breeding such vitriolic hatred for each side of the aisle, I am not sure America will ever be the same…and when one party controls it all… Oh boy…
How does one measure political polarization? We’ve had Cabinet members duel with Vice Presidents. We’ve had states leave the union. Politicians stand in front of school house doors until removed by federal agents. There have been four Presidents assassinated, all of them (arguably) due to domestic political issues.
I also have disgust over the grandstanding, but preening on CNN really isn’t a big deal in the end. In fact, it played out the way most of the economic analysts predicted: a lot of noise and a last-minute deal. Legally elected officials held a vote and a decision was made. Kind of an amazing thing compared to how most of the world operates.
I guess this is more of a rhetorical question, but why did those staes leave the Union? Interests change, ideals change, and the way in which we view life changes. To think this country will last forever as is…and was is something I cannot imagine (I wish it would become a more perfect union, but I think that ship has sailed). States left in the 1860s becasue their interests were no longer considered viable by a majority government (no, I am not saying slavery was viable or okay…just looking through an economic lense). Put California and South Dakota (or another “conservative state) side-by-side…other than freedom (and that’s debateable with California), they differ politcally, philisophically, economically (one is solvent and one isn’t), and in general mindset. We are having to (more and more) jam the square peg into the round hole to accomodate millions of competing demands. And as you said, sure, it’s amazing when you look at the rest of the world, but then again, why did Sudan just split? Culture, religion, fiscal responsibility, the level at which the government coddles you varies significantly, perhaps more than ever now that info sharing is instantaneous. I am not suggesting revolution, but more and more articles (even one on MSNBC) are revealing just how different and “polarized” we are becoming (as people and as states). Maybe we shouldn’t fight it… Is it so bad to have groups of people with a common heritage, religious upbringing, economic outlook, etc, want to have ownership of their own future? Thanks for the input and insight…I am just throwing out thoughts as well.
We’ve been trained to think that “polarization” = “bad” and “Compromise” = “Good”. This is just not so.
Compromise in particular, if done for its own sake, can be incredibly destructive. The whole reason we’re hitting the upper limits of our ability to borrow is that both parties were happy to “compromise” and “be reasonable” and “come to bi-partisan solutions” over the last several decades when it came to spending more than they had, and now we’re eating the results.
Thanks, Baby Boomers.
Compromise is a means to an end, not an end. And when the goals of the two parties are mutually exclusive (individual liberty vs. collectivism for the “greater good”), there can’t be any real compromise. So then you have entrenchment, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing.
But you do have to pick a side. You don’t have to question the good intentions of people who disagree with you politically, but nor do you have to pretend their policies aren’t destructive and deadly.
It’s not rancor that’s destroying us – it’s the incompetence of our current political class. SWA is right – this “rancor” ain’t nuthin’ historically speaking. But I would argue the current level of incompetence at ALL level of government in both political parties IS.
I think all of this contention is healthy and necessary. The alternative is complacency or lack of seriousness in the face of total financial meltdown. I’d rather be a little rancorous and dedicated to what I think is the only correct side of the debate.
And you think the newer and younger generation of text messaging, facebooking, twatting, and distracted driving youngsters is going to be any better? Where is the “improved” political class going to come from? They watch the mess we’re in now…because it’s in your face and everywhere…what is a good example of politics today? If this is the best we have today, what does the future really hold? Not to sound like a crotchety old man, but the short attention span, instant gratification Xbox generation has a steep learning curve to not be “that political class” you speak of above. Who is training the next generation of politicians? When will we depart the current pattern? Think about it…
“I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today” – Hesiod, ~700BC.
Who trained the current generation of politicians? Who trained the prior one? A generation rises to meet the problems of their formative years. A child who had parents lose their job, whose house was foreclosed, who had to move back in with grandma… they will hold a different view of things than a Boomer who grew up in a time of unbridled optimism. I don’t think it’s a bad thing.
“I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him.” – G. K. Chesterton, ~1900.
I guess we had more left to lose — AA+ But hey, as long as we SAY we’re a AAA country and plug our ears when bad news comes around, there isn’t any bad news… Why does the “Emperor’s New Clothes” story come to mind when I watch the current travesty unfolding? I am glad S&P put us on notice…it was deserved. Congress and the President don’t get it…they really don’t. Ds and Rs after names seem to be the only item they both have passion in…rather than America. What a wonderful example we have set for the future.