One of the downsides of being a political junkie is that you get tons of various campaign and political E-mails. It’s not all bad – I usually find it pretty interesting. But lately I’ve gotten a lot of junk, mostly on Facebook, from a small cadre of people pushing people to vote for Tim Fasano, the Independent American Party candidate for Congress in next week’s special election.
Most of them contain some combination of Republican hate coupled with Fasano being the only “true conservative” in the race. And just to show they don’t just hate Republicans, they talk about how terrible the two party system is, how there isn’t a dime’s worth of difference between the two parties, how we need to break from the system’s “tyranny,” and how our only salvation as a nation is to vote for a party organized by folks who have never won a single seat in a single major election.
You see it in various discussion threads, too, as if volume and frequency of a few ardent supporters will translate to votes. Ron Paul supporters were notorious in ’08 for spamming online polls.
But hey – I get it on some level. It’s not like either major political party has acquitted itself particularly well in the last several years, or has hewn particularly close to their putative principles. So if the two parties we have stink, then might a different one be just the ticket?
In a word, no. And it’s worth keeping that in mind and defending a system that, while imperfect, could be a lot worse.
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I think third parties are actually pretty silly, for the most part. I admire the pluck that it takes to buck the system so profoundly, but that’s where it ends. For the most part, unless you have some serious financial backing or some kind of celebrity appeal that gets you a spot on the stage, no third party candidate has a real shot at winning a major election. So without that, the question is begged – what’s the point? Why do you bother?
I think there are two answers to this. One, the people are just delusional. Two, I don’t think they want to win.
It’s easy to be sanctimonious about how uncompromising we are in our principles when we don’t ever have to put our money where our mouths are and govern. You hear criticism on the left and the right because So-and-so isn’t Conservative enough or Whatshisname just isn’t willing to fight for Progressivism. Sometimes that’s even true. But at the end of the day, winning candidates on the federal level can’t do everything they want to do because there are 535 other folks with different agendas and just as much, if not more, fractional power to implement them. On the state level in Nevada, it’s 63 other people.
President Obama learned this the hard way. He campaigned against George W Bush in 2008 relentlessly and often unfairly. He admitted no cohesive philosophy of his own. Instead, he was like a dog chasing a car – he just barked loudly and ran faster than the other dog in the race. The problem for him was that he eventually caught the car. And it’s been painfully obvious over the last three years that once he caught it, he didn’t have a damned clue what to do with it.
Third party candidates have no such issues. They will never catch the car. They can run after the car at a leisurely pace all the while complaining about how the other dogs are running and about how they don’t get no respect just for bothering to get off the porch.
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It’s cliche that if you don’t vote and get involved, that you can’t complain when the government does stuff you don’t like. True.
But I say it’s just as true that if your votes and involvement are for candidates whom you know on some level will never, ever actually win the races they’re in, that you’re in exactly the same position as the person who didn’t bother voting at all.
I find this a total abdication of one’s responsibility to responsibly help ch0se their government.
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There are really only two major philosophies of government, when you get right down to it. One philosophy insists that if only government has enough power and control over its citizenry, then we can create a utopia on Earth. The other insists on putting individual liberty first and foremost, limiting government to functions which protect and promote that liberty.
These are mutually incompatible philosophies. If there is overlap between them in means or goals, it is coincidental and ultimately untenable. It will remain the great political philosophical debate as long as humans form governments, and usually the control folks win. (Historically, poverty and oppression win, too, and that’s no coincidence.) So it makes sense that there be two major parties who (admittedly imperfectly) will reflect this divide.
It’s true that the parties, built of, for, and by political opportunists of every stripe, will betray these core convictions and philosophies from time to time. Third party activists tell us that their “new” party is the answer, as if the current leadership of any organization was immutable. But that leadership isn’t immutable, and is absolutely positively replaceable. That’s why we have primary elections.
And that’s where the tea party movement has shown it’s effectiveness, effectiveness that no IAP or Libertarian candidate could ever dream of after decades in the political wilderness. They recognized that any political party is just an empty vessel that can be filled with almost any kind of fuel and pointed in almost any direction if enough like-minded people get on board. And they further recognized that the GOP is the only vessel out there that has the mass and the power and the resources and the built-in base to actually get where they needed to go, which is to actually take control of the levers of power in Washington and/or various state capitals. And most importantly, they are learning (sometimes the hard way) to not let the perceived perfect (some philosophically pure but not politically competent candidate) be the enemy of the good.
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There are two recent historical examples of all of this which might at first seem to give hope to the third party folks – Ross Perot, and Jesse Ventura.
Perot, of course, was independently wealthy, and could fund his two campaigns himself. That made him instantly viable whether he gained popular support or not. It gave him an insta-platform very few other people could give themselves without a pre-existing party structure.
Perot was a center-right candidate competing against another center-right candidate in a general election in a center-right nation. And what was the result? The lefty won, and proceeded to push a lefty agenda until he was repudiated two years later in the midterm elections.
Ventura was, of course, more successful. I lived in Minnesota the year he won, and had I been registered to vote there, I would have voted for him. And he was an effective governor – for a time, anyway.
But like Perot, he was able to propel himself into the public eye by virtue of his previous celebrity and wealth. He also had an extraordinary gift for communicating economic basics, and explaining the absurdities of the budgeting shell games most governments play to make their books look less unbalanced.
But he was thin skinned, and couldn’t build a party structure that would support non-celebrity candidates. He was short sighted, and what could have been a real movement died a sad death. Last year, the remnants of his movement helped elect, Perot-style, a lefty governor even in a year where Republicans took control of the State House.
Neither of those scenarios represent success in my book.
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One has to wonder, too, what would happen if third parties got their wish, and became competetive. Say the IAP and Republicans represented about 30% of the voters each, with Democrats representing 40%. We’d be left with a conservative electorate consistently voting for liberal candidates. Each individual might proudly be “voting their conscience,” but at the end of the day the constituency is not accurately represented. So who loses? Conservatism.
Or say that the IAP fully supplanted a dying Republican Party, just as the Republicans did when the Whigs went extinct. Do the third party champions really believe that their elected officials would be immune from human nature, and the temptations of power and greed and other corruptions that help define that nature? Do they really think that no IAP official will ever compromise or falter or sell out their principles? And indeed – wouldn’t we still have a two party system?
Or on a smaller scale, say Tim Fasano won this special election and went to Congress. In any representative body, no single representative has much power alone. One must build coalitions and majorities, or you become an errant and easily disregarded voice in the wilderness. So would Fasano caucus with the Republicans, which could help move the party to the right but would be seen as a betrayal by his base? (Would they call him an IAPINO?) Or would he refuse and simply stand alone, wielding neither power nor influence, and therefore impacting policy no more by his presence than had he lost the race in the first place?
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In all fairness, I must confess – I’m voting for Amodei because I know, trust, like, and respect him. I haven’t agreed with every vote he’s ever made, but then the only time I’ve ever voted for a candidate who perfectly represented my beliefs was when I voted for myself last year. His “RINO sins” were for the most part attempted back-burns done in order to prevent a far more dangerous liberal conflagration.
But most of all, he knows how to win elections, and how to be effective once elected. No matter how much more “conservative” Fasano might be, he can’t meet those two prerequisites, and that as much as anything else should disqualify him from consideration by any serious voter in this election.
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I prefer a system that forces various citizen coalitions to compromise ahead of time. I prefer a system where the general direction most people want their state or country to go is generally reflected by the representative they elect. I prefer it when our elected officials win with actual majorities, not just pluralities.
I prefer, for all its problems, a two party system.
Lets began the counter arguments on these points:
Not only has the IAP already elected people to partisan office in Nevada for one, but two were elected in 2010 while running against a both a Republican and Democrat, and we also have increased our share of elected office holders in this state alone. One was also elected in 2006 while running against a GOP candidate and a Libertarian as well.
So the argument that we’re not going to ever get anywhere is getting weaker by the minute.
Janine Hansen also got second place in her race for state Assembly last year, and if more Republicans didn’t follow your precious status-quo, or were spooked into voting for Ellison by RINO Carpenter and the Good Ole’ Boy establishment in Elko, whom wanted to keep things the way they were, then she would have won.
And the Democrat running in the race didn’t even come close to winning over Ellison either! So who was the spoiler in that one?
Its quite funny that you don’t even know this but we do endorse and support GOP candidates in races where the Republican is in line with our Party principles- Don Gustavson is one of those candidates- ever wonder why we don’t run a candidate against him?
Our State Chairman even mailed out letters last election to all the IAP registered voters in the 40th Assembly District urging them to vote for Pete Livermore, since he was also deemed conservative enough have our support.
Pete won, of course.
And where did this idea that we want to replace the GOP come from? I take it you made that one up. We’re not trying to replace anybody, except the crooked politics (both Dem and GOP) that have screwed up our state and our nation.
I, and other Independent Americans, and many, MANY others as well, for all its perfections and solutions- prefer a multi-party system.
After all, we used to have that form of political system in our Congress and legislatures back in the early 19th century.
Perhaps its time we return to such a system.
BTW, I did a rebuttal to Dullard’s article-
http://thirdpartydaily.blogspot.com/2011/07/dullard-mush-anon-guy-fails-to-smear.html
OK, I’ll bite. Give me a list of races where the IAP candidate won, along with the vote totals – actual numbers, not just percentages. Then, give me a list of policies which were proposed by the IAP officeholder and then formally adopted into law. I imagine the numbers will be small, and the list will be short.
I give Janine a lot of credit for a good run, but the fact of the matter is that she DIDN’T win. She failed to convince people that she would be an effective representative in the Assembly. Not everyone in that district shared your opinion of either Carpenter or Ellison, and your persecution/conspiracy complex isn’t going to bring anyone around. (A piece of advice – be careful in your blanket condemnations and gratuitous insults of people you need to join your cause if it’s ever going to bear fruit – it’s bad for business!)
No hit on Janine, I like her, but she was the best possible chance for the IAP in a race where the stars were aligned for her, and it didn’t work out. She would have been much better off running against Ellison in a GOP primary. Indeed – one of the reasons I vote reliably Republican in legislative races and less so for others like DA or SoS is because the current rules make quantity of a specific party matter.
For example, say the IAP was to elect three Assemblymen. Suppose further that the Dems had 20 Assemblymen, and the GOP had 19. That keeps the Democrats in charge of every committee, which means they control the agenda even in an Assembly that leans right. What kind of tactical sense does that make? What kind of philosophical sense does that make? How does that ever make me want to vote for a third party?
I would have paid close attention to Fasano had he made a serious bid for my vote in a Republican Primary, or had he vied for my support as a GOP Central Committee member. Instead he chose to be irrelevant, except potentially as a spoiler in favor of the Democrat. In doing so, he demonstrated tactical shortsightedness and incompetence, as well as a lack of understanding of the current political terrain – hardly pluses when I’m considering who is going to go fight the hard fight in Congress on my behalf.
Results matter. You can’t turn philosophy into policy without butts in the seats with the voting buttons. And right now, particularly in this race, no third party has a shot in Hades of ever actually sitting in that seat in a federal, statewide, or even state legislative district seat in Nevada.
Next time raise some money and buy a little credibility. Or at least chart out a CREDIBLE path to eventual dominance. At the very least, find a former pro-wrestler to carry your banner for a few cycles. Then you might actually build some momentum and accomplish something for the cause of liberty, instead of just spitting into the wind and then complaining when you wind up all wet.
Look at what has happened with only 2 parties in control for over 100 years. It has been a disaster. With many parties of equal strength, the parties would not just take turns spending our money knowing that even if one party loses control for a few elections, they will get back in control again.
They just take turns ruining our country
OK, VR. How about in Europe (indeed, most of the rest of the world) where they have a different system that supports many parties? I’d argue they’re worse off, and in a far shorter period of time (most of those governments only date from the end of WWII). On the other hand, we’ve effectively had a two party system since the Federalists and Anti-Federalists were fighting over whether or not to ratify the Bill of Rights.
You don’t like the current GOP crop? You’ve had no shortage of chances to have a say in it, and you’ve refused. Come join and have your say. Take it over. Be effective, if you can. Quit whining about how those other parties are just so darn MEEAAAN to you. Raise money. Get supporters. Get votes. Win elections on all levels on a regular basis. Put real, long term, lasting results up on the political scoreboard and more importantly, in our collective body of law.
If you can’t do that, what’s the point?
Ron Paul supporters weren’t “spamming online polls” in 2008. If you look at the online polls this cycle — and many of the offline straw polls and such as well — you’ll find that Ron Paul is once again doing extremely well.
Why is that? It’s because the people who are paying most attention to the political process, and who care enough to volunteer their time to participate in such polls, are disproportionately in favor of him.
The people who don’t follow things as closely, getting what news they do consume mainly from mainstream sources, and whose political involvement is generally limited to voting in actual elections and maybe writing the occasional check, are less likely to support Ron Paul.
When the most informed portion of the grassroots (people outside of the political elite) are disproportionately lining up behind one particular candidate, this should tell us something.
But let’s examine the main theme of this blog post, the case against voting for alternative parties.
There are five major alternative parties in the United States. By “major” I mean nationally organized, with state chapters across the country, running hundreds of candidates each year for local, state, and national races. Besides the two establishment/status quo parties, the Republicans and the Democrats, these are the Green Party on the left, the Constitution Party (in some places known as the American Independent or Independent American Party) on the right, and the Libertarian Party which sides with conservatives on defending economic freedom and with liberals on defending civil liberties.
The GOP/Dem establishment, with the help of their allies in the mainstream media, has done its best to shut these parties and their candidates out of the system, emphasizing “bipartisan” legislation and approaches, refusing to debate alternative candidates, maintaining a system of “winner take all” voting rather than allowing proportional representation or even ranked choice voting, and writing ballot access laws that tilt the playing field against alternative parties and their candidates, often making it impossible for even alternative presidential tickets raising hundreds of thousands of dollars to appear on voters’ ballots in all 50 states.
Poll after poll shows that Americans want a third party — at least one, if not more. But the two-party cartel has been quite effective at creating a logjam to block change.
Along with the significant practical impediments they have created to protect themselves from real change, the political establishment also rely on the myth of the “wasted vote”.
Although he doesn’t mention it explicitly, this myth is the main theme running through the blog author’s argument — that alternative parties can’t win, so what’s the point in wasting your vote by voting for them?
But the reality is that your single vote will in all likelihood NEVER affect the outcome of an election, probably not even at the local level, and certainly not at the national level. Even in the 2000 presidential race, which was not just close, but once-in-a-lifetime close, in order to personally change the outcome, you would’ve had to not just live in Florida, but personally convince several hundred other folks who also lived in Florida, to change their votes.
So why vote at all? The only real reason is to be part of the solution. To do the right thing, and hope that others will as well. To add to someone’s vote total, whether he or she wins or not, in order that the voices of the people be seen and heard in the election results.
Mathematically speaking, when you vote for an alternative party or candidate, your vote actually has a GREATER proportional impact on the outcome — one vote added to 100,000, effects a percentage change in that total ten times greater than one vote added to 1,000,000. And since as I noted, your vote is extremely unlikely to actually change who is elected president or even to Congress — roughly the same odds as winning the lottery — you might as well vote your conscience.
The only truly “wasted vote” in my opinion, is a vote for someone you can’t believe in — a vote you cast, not because you thought the person you voted for was the best candidate running, but because you were afraid of how you thought other people were going to vote. When a majority votes not based on conscience, but based on how they expect others to vote — in other words, trying to game the system — then representative government is broken, because there is no guarantee that the person elected by the majority will be the person the majority really most prefers.
The fundamental question for each voter to consider here is *not* what the odds may be of an alternative party succeeding in a particular contest. If that is what guides you, you’re no better than a politician who determines his positions by following the polls.
The fundamental question to ask yourself is, when it comes to playing the small part each of us can play, are you going to be part of the problem, or part of the solution?
P.S. – In the current system, winning candidates do NOT typically win actual majorities. They only win majorities of votes cast, which represent only a minority of those eligible to vote, and an even smaller minority of all people in the United States.
And one reason they don’t vote, of course, is that the political establishment has been so effective at preventing real change, that people figure, as the blog author put it, “What’s the point? Why bother?”
A system of proportional representation, in which each party received a percentage of seats in Congress and state legislatures equal to its percentage of the vote — a system used at the national level in dozens of countries, including many stable democracies such as Switzerland, Argentina, and South Korea — would remove this incentive against voting, by providing political minorities with some voice in government.
Starchild, you said, “So why vote at all? The only real reason is to be part of the solution. To do the right thing, and hope that others will as well.”
With all due respect, this is meaningless. It’s drivel. It’s no more substantive than “Hope and Change.”
The purpose of elections (and of course, voting) is to chose those who will be implementing law and policy. That’s it. If you don’t win elections, you won’t get your preferred policies implemented. “Being part of the solution” requires and actual “solution” – which means like-minded public officials in sufficient quantity to turn conservative ideas into policies.
The ONLY way that will realistically happen currently is via an established, major party. The tea party movement has helped force the GOP back to their principles, and as a result, they are achieving some success.
Winning elections requires coalition building, which requires SOME amount of compromise. If you are absolutely unwilling to ever compromise anything, you will never, ever, ever build a successful majority of voters or, once elected, an effective governing majority.
You can complain about conspiracy theories and “GOP/Dem Establishments” all you want, but the truth of the matter is that most people won’t spend a vote when they get NOTHING for it in return in terms of actual policy implementation. NO third party in this country, “major” or otherwise, has any realistic chance of getting enough people elected to affect policy. Therefore, they are manifestly NOT part of ANY solution.
If voting for a third party makes you “feel good”, then that’s fine – but again, it’s no more commendable that voting for Obama because it “felt good.” Voting for someone who has not first demonstrated an ability and a willingness to win is, in fact, wasting your vote. If you’re successful in getting a few hundred people to follow you in your nihilism, you absolutely can have a negative impact on the ability to promote or maintain conservative policies in government. Close elections happen all the time on the local level, and those are just as important to our individual liberty that federal elections, close or not.
When I vote, if I want that vote to matter, I HAVE to try to figure out what other voters are doing. If
So after reading this blog post and the ensuing comments this discourse seems to be less philosophical and more practical. I was actually interested in terms of liberty, democracy, etc… what your views were on defending the two party system vs some form of PR system. I’m not railing against your views, because I think you are simply stating the practical approach to a system that demands two parties. Any first year Political Science student can tell you that a single member district plurality system will demand two parties as those two opposing forces will simply swallow up the minority parties in a macro view. Yes.. I get it… third party candidates can win races and take votes that one of the majority parties would otherwise receive thereby causing a defeat to one’s own macro political sensibilities. This really isn’t the discourse to me. This is how it is. I think Orrin is simply making the choice to cast his vote in a fashion that has the BEST chance for successfully implementing policies and practices that he would like implemented.
The real question, for someone who holds dear the idea that we get to live in a place where we do have a say, is whether we are practicing representative government in the best fashion? I’ve thought about this before and I can’t really come up with a good politically philosophical reason why forcing opinions and voices to be necessarily limited to two parties is best for it’s people. The biggest argument for our system is that it does indeed provide for stability of government. However… could there not be some form of adoption of a proportional representative system that would allow voters and citizens to elect representatives that m0re readily align with their beliefs and wants while still maintaining stability of government. Much like the Senate provides a greater voice smaller populations vs the House. And without muddying the waters of a States Rights vs Federal argument… what about a system where one of the two houses were some form of PR system? I guess that was what I was looking for in this blog post and would be most interested to see Orrin’s thoughts on. But I know this is a digression from the discourse set out above.