I recently received an E-mail from a disaffected Ron Paul supporter that Nevada Paul Campaign Chair Carl Bunce recently sent out to his supporters. The long and the short of it is that it’s a battle plan which encourages Paul folks to lie to pollsters to “fool” the Romney campaign, in order to make it easier to shock-‘n’-awe their way to a Ron Paul National Convention slate. It’s full of paranoia about information control (Hah! Fail!) and secrecy, with a nice dab of Personality Cult for Doctor Paul.
Well, secret’s out, you dishonest goofballs. Everyone knows your game.
I’ve already detailed how these people have no respect for elections, the express will of an electorate, or anyone’s liberty except their own. Bunce signs his E-mails “In Liberty” – what a bunch of bullcrap. (I guess it’s kind of like how they call it the “People’s Republic.”) This E-mail provides ample proof that these people don’t care about winning elections or building majorities, but simply want to throw temper tantrums like entitled babies, all the while thinking they’re oh so clever. They don’t just think they’re entitled to vote, they think they have some God-given entitlement to win every election just because they showed up! Honestly – they’re much, much more akin to Occupy Wall Street hippies than any recognizable brand of libertarianism or conservatism.
Don’t these people realize that if they had a winning message, they wouldn’t have the need for all the secrecy? Don’t they see what hypocrites they look like when they cry about dishonesty and lack of transparency in government? And remember, this isn’t just some independent Paul supporter. This IS the Ron Paul campaign, and Ron Paul himself is directly responsible for it. Either the Congressman is blind to these types of shenanigans, or he endorses it. Which is it, Good Doctor? Will you renounce this assault on actual liberty being perpetuated in your name? There’s certainly nothing “libertarian” about any of this.
Nevada Republicans were promised by their Central Committee that their caucus votes would be proportionally binding all the way through the first round of voting at the national convention. I have to wonder – if these Paul people wind up going to the national convention, will they honor that promise? Or will they just openly betray the Nevadans they claim to want to represent?
Just remember this – people willing to lie, cheat, or steal in order to get power will lie, cheat and steal once they’re in power. Even if you find Paul’s platform compelling, after this there’s no way you could trust he’d follow through with any of it.
~~~
Speaking of lying, cheating, and stealing, I wonder if our new state party chair Michael McDonald will try to crack down on this nonsense. He’s certainly painted himself in a corner. If he stands up to these petty thugs, he’ll lose his entire base of support. If he stand with the thugs, the convention will be a national embarrassment to make 2008 look like a garden party, and the 81% of Nevada Republicans who DIDN’T support Ron Paul will take their time and energy elsewhere.
It almost – almost – makes me sorry I’m going to miss the fireworks. I can only hope the ensuing chaos will finally put an end to this perennial nonsense.
I honestly and truly want to see a single Ron Paul supporter justify this nonsense, or explain how – even if this plan succeeds and Ron Paul upsets Mitt Romney on the convention floor to be the GOP nominee against Obama – Paul could go to the general election with a single shred of legitimacy.
~~~
Here’s the E-mail in its entirety. Enjoy!
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[Editor’s Note: This post was an endless list of links that had the effect of “hiding” all of the other comments. But instead of deleting it altogether, I just kept the Nevada-specific links so I could comment on its absurdity and frankly, deceptiveness. The “fraud” meme is, of course, complete BS, as I’ve previously written about and point out again below. — OJ]
excuse me? WHAT?!?!?!
ELECTION FRAUD 2012…
-Significant Evidence of Algorithm Vote Flipping in GOP Primary Elections
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByJAC-sfXwumdkE4d0Y2eWtURTZ2eDM5RmlLc3ZhQQ/edit?pli=1
-2012 Election RIGGED – This is going Viral http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBx__69pkpY&feature=related
-Ron Paul – Fraud Victim in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh4DmZY5YYk
-Nevada Election Fraud Proof In 5 minutes, Nevada GOP Caucus Fraud Voter Rights Violated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxQ-iLM3VVA&feature=related
-What Happened to Ron Paul’s Vote in Nevada?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZfKfaqczE&feature=related
-Ron Paul: Vote Rigged Against Him In Nevada?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yvdpqAjKaU&feature=related
Your write crap. How is that you have turned a blind eye to the cheating the Romney camp is doing? How is this cheating anyway? Who know Romney is up to with the poll people calling people. I wouldnt tell them anything.
I gotta be honest, bud, after reading your comments I expected the actual email to be much, much worse.
I think you are being extremely unfair. Romney’s campaign is infinitely more adept at politics, is well funded, and has the support of key figures in the GOP. The playing field has been unfair since the get-go.
This email asking RP people to use a Romney offensive against him, by lying on a poll, seems like a totally valid strategy. I don’t get your hostile reaction to this at all.
Certainly you are aware of how caucuses have been run by Romney-supporter who denied voters their rights to a head count, to speak on behalf of RP, and even in one case called in police helicopters to have them arrested!?
Given that landscape, its hard to read an email advising RP supporters to be misleading to a pollster as this awful, hypocritical thing.
Good for them, it’s about time they started playing the game!
Here are 2 examples in just the past 24 hours of the shenanigans I alluded to above:
One day before the NY GOP Presidential primary, Vincent Reda, the First Vice Chairman of the NY Republican Party, made robo calls to voters declaring that all other candidates had dropped out of the race except Mitt Romne
Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/323637#ixzz1t4IPkl9a
and here is one of dozens of documented cases of total disregard for the rules and fairness when a RP supporter is legitimately elected at a caucus:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politicsnorthwest/2018061271_king_co_gop_leader_boots_caucu.html
“You people” need to understand that we’re onto YOUR lying, cheating and stealing game. The Romney camp has been emailing Ron Paul supporters because they STOLE their email addresses. Fair? Like turning off lights and breaking quorum at conventions? Fair, as in the NY GOP Chairman telling voters that Romney is the only one left in the race? Fair as in what Alaska did? Your guy and his few supporters wouldn’t know fair if it slapped them in their cheating faces.
Ron Paul supporters work hard against a deck that is stacked against them. They were automaticly excluded in most party processes if they ever identified themselves publicly and now there are thousands of them in Nevada that show up. They dont have to hide anymore. You got to show up to win. Heck they even got 2/3 of Clark County eboard and all of Nye County. They will get all the National Delegates from Nevada. From what I heard Iowa and MN as well. I got to say giving your direct competition false info does not seem that bad. I mean the Romney Campaign has no clue who supports him enough to show up at the state convention. Why help them in any way?
Oh, man, they told their supporters to mislead a pollster in order to execute upon a campaign strategy! Someone call Homeland Security! Is this really the best you can come up with?!?
How about you research and answer a question with real legal implications for your readers – how did the Romney campaign obtain access to the database containing the personal contact information for all of the Nevada State Convention delegates? My guess is that an insider illegally “appropriated” it and passed the data on to the Romney camp, since the Nevada Republican Party didn’t give it to them voluntarily, as far as I’m aware. That makes the Romney campaign guilty of receiving stolen goods.
Someone call the media! Headline – “Romney doesn’t care about your privacy, campaign steals personal information of thousands of people!” Oh, wait, we all knew that already. Move along. Nothing to see here.
So, let’s recap – the Ron Paul campaign are a bunch of dishonest, lying, cheaters because they encourageed their supporters to mislead a pollster in order to execute on a campaign strategy, while the Romney campaign commits a class C felony in order to obtain the data necessary to conduct the very same poll, and they are the “good guys”. Now, who again, is lying, cheating, and stealing?
No, Orrin, you are the expert on prevarication. Your past posts on activities at the Nevada Republican Party have all been (purposely?) in error and now you are starting on the Ron Paul people. Too bad Curly but they handed you another “whippin” in Las Vegas last Sunday. Get used to it! Or, better yet, register as a Democrat because that’s where you belong.
Johnson, there’s nothing in Bunce’s letter that suggests “stealing.” You are really scraping the barrel to come up with something bad about the Ron Paul people. Do you have something against Peace, Liberty & Sound Money? Those are the tenets of Ron’s platform & sound very good to me!
Why don’t you go write an RIP article about Newt, or something constructive like that.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/333323/20120425/ron-paul-2012-news-delegates-mitt-romney.htm
MORE good news!!!!!!!!!!!!
Folks, thanks for coming and helping me prove my point. A couple of things:
* The “fraud proof” videos are a joke, with critical information deceptively omitted (hey – you’ve already acknowledged a little lying is OK, so why not a little more? See how this works?). For example, we had several dozen people throughout Washoe County who thought they could roll in at 12:00 for a meeting that started at 10:00, and then were shocked when the precinct meeting (the statutorily required venue for the caucus vote) was adjourned. Most of the one video was of the “special” caucus in Clark County, held SPECIFICALLY for people whose religious faith (Jewish folks, primarily) prevented them from caucusing that morning. This purpose was well known, but in spite of that, the Paul Campaign sent out a dishonest E-mail (that keeps coming up!) telling supporters they should flood it even if they were just too stoned (or whatever) to make it to the morning meeting. In spite of this deception, most of the Paul folks were ultimately admitted, and they won that precinct meeting overwhelmingly. The only fraud that took place there came from the Paul Campaign.
* Ron Paul did not do well in Nevada, not because of fraud, but because he wasn’t persuasive to most Republicans. (Overt hostility to 80% of the party may have something to do with that, BTW). Robert (Fellner), you acknowledged this at the time with a great piece, and I wrote about what I personally witnessed in the count room in Washoe, including the fact that a good 50% of the COUNTERS were Paul supporters!
* Back in April 2011, the GOP Central Committee overwhelmingly voted to make the caucus vote proportionally binding on our national delegates. I was there, and I argued (successfully) for that because I and the rest of the CC at the time believed every Republican in Nevada should have their vote respected. (Incidentally, Paul supporter James Smack was one of the few people who spoke against respecting the will of Nevada voters at the National Convention.) That was the promise we as a party made to the voters, and it was a promise I personally made to every Republican who came to one of my caucus training sessions. By openly (and sometimes not so openly) advocating a plan to violate that promise, well, that’s lying, cheating, AND stealing in my book. And since my name was on the promise that YOU are now happy to try to break, I take your perfidy personally.
* The larger point is that Ron Paul failed to win. He has failed to convince even a plurality of Republicans in a single state that he was the candidate, and any accusations that fraud were involved are either demonstrably false or are empty conjecture (plus, we already know many of you are willing to lie to advance a political agenda, so why should we believe you about your fraud accusations? See how that keeps coming back to bite you?). In our current system, delegates are expected to carry out the will of the Republican voters in their state. By trying to work the rules to nullify all of those elections, you break faith (aka lie, cheat, and steal) with the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of Republicans who you failed to convince. If you really want to eliminate ANY invfluence you might otherwise have on American politics, keep it up. Even if by some miracle you were to pull off a floor nomination for Paul, NO ONE (except a few of you) would see it as legitimate, and you would never have the trust or the consent of the people you would seek to govern.
Sorry, guys – not only is your “ends justify the means!” attitude immoral, it’s also incredibly counter-productive to the cause of liberty. And THAT’S why feel compelled to speak out against it. Liberty, Transparency, and Integrity don’t happen just because you keep talking about the words, they happen when you practice what the words represent on a regular basis.
Hi. I’m relatively new to the whole process so this is all new to me. I want I really don’t like is seeing the nastiness and bitterness in your post Mr. Johnson.
Lie, Cheat, Steal.
That’s the accusation you’ve thrown at Ron Paul and his supporters. As a person who doesn’t have a dog in this fight I see just as much of that coming from the Romney campaign. I don’t know why you’re condemning one side and not the other. Check your bias at the door because we’re all Republicans.
How does Ron Paul think he can win the national election if he deceives the majority of Republicans with subversive, covert tactics? Eighty percent of Nevadans want nothing to do with Dr. Paul’s leadership. Conniving to negate the popular vote at the State and National Conventions is appalling. How can any patriot support such an obvious maneuver/strategy intended to rob the individual of his/her vote?
Thanks, Orrin, for the expose. Keep up the good work.
Carl Bunce’s suggestion was in response to incessant phone spam from the Romney camp. If you simply hung up, then the spam would keep coming. Since when does anyone owe spammers correct information. Bunce did nothing wrong.
You support a corrupt political status quo that wouldn’t recognize honesty if it hit them in the face. So stop pretending to be indignant about a suggestion for dealing with phone phishing by the Romney camp. Your real problem is that support is strong in Nevada for Ron Paul and starting next week, you’re going to have to come to grips with the fact that well-informed Nevadans are fed up with tax raising, big government RINOs like Romney.
“Your real problem is that support is strong in Nevada for Ron Paul and starting next week, you’re going to have to come to grips with the fact that well-informed Nevadans are fed up with tax raising, big government RINOs like Romney.”
And here it is. The real reason so many Paul supporters get my goat so badly. First, support simply ISN’T strong in Nevada – the vote established that beyond a reasonable doubt. But most of all, at the heart of this statement is this sentiment:
“We, the small self-proclaimed elite minority, are smarter and more educated than you. Therefore, WE deserve to have a voice, but you don’t. If we can’t win an election, we’ll take our power by force, subterfuge, or deception. Your vote means nothing to us.”
Liberty for me, but not for thee. Sorry, but no thanks. We already have a statist in the White House. I’m not looking for another.
Gotta love it when the mask slips. Thanks, Lynette.
“Eighty percent of Nevadans want nothing to do with Dr. Paul’s leadership.”
The above statement makes some pretty bad assumptions. The only thing a preference poll conducted nearly 3 months ago proves is that many people had a candidate they preferred over Ron Paul – it certainly wasn’t an indictment of him or his ideals. Since that poll was taken, half of the candidates dropped out of the race, and many people have changed their opinions.
The reality of the situation is that the caucus and convention process was designed specifically to reward participation in order to keep passionate people involved. You get out of it exactly what you put in. If the level of participation you want to have is to just show up, cast a vote in a preference poll, and go home, that will be the extent of your control over the process. If you are willing to put in the time and expense to go through the delegate process at various levels, by doing so you have earned the right to be a decision maker.
“If the level of participation you want to have is to just show up, cast a vote in a preference poll, and go home, that will be the extent of your control over the process.”
False, false, false. The delegates were bound, which means the voters “control” the process by directing the delegates via their vote. This is like saying that a candidate who loses a vote should still be allowed to “win” if he runs to Carson City and sits in the chair earlier – it’s absurd.
But let’s carry your philosophy a step further:
“If the level of participation you want to have is to just show up, cast a vote in an election, and go home, that will be the extent of your control over the process. If you are willing to put in the time and expense to go through the running for office process, by doing so you have earned the right to be a decision maker regardless of what the lazy voters want or think.”
That’s statism, man. Pure and simple. It’s control without the consent of the governed. Justify it to yourself however you want, but it’s not conservative, it’s not libertarian, it’s not honorable, and it’s not right.
There is zero evidence that people have “changed their opinions” and a great popular wave is now sweeping through Nevada for Ron Paul. If we had another caucus today, I suspect Paul’s numbers would be almost exactly the same – there were only 25 more votes for Paul in 2012 in NV than there were four years ago, even with all that time to build awareness and support.
Look – I don’t give a tinker’s damn who goes to Tampa for Nevada – I really don’t. Go – have fun. Wear “End the Fed” T-shirts – good for you. But I damned well expect the caucus vote totals to be respected and acted upon by the delegates when they get there – AS WE PROMISED OUR PEOPLE THEY WOULD BE, which means most of them will NOT cast votes for Ron Paul. The fact that it seems this is clearly NOT the intent of the Paul folks is what upsets me so much.
Orrin:
20 year Republican here, Nevada voter in the district YOU ran in a couple of years ago.
The primary is a competition for GOP voters to select their preferred candidate. It is a confusing system of back slapping, smoke filled room deals, which has been manipulated by the powers that be to exclude everyone but company men from the process, which is effectively the only way to gain office.
It’s apparent that there are minimal differences between the two parties, but it’s also obvious no third party candidate can ever win any significant office in the US as long as the two parties have control of our administrative process of selecting candidates. And yet Nevadans want something different.
We need profound, legitimate change and the existing system will not allow that to happen.
If the Paul campaign, or some effort from the left or any other political front, wants to move that effort forward– then good on them.
I’ll agree with you on three points: dishonesty is totally unacceptable in electoral politics and many Paul supporters are willing to lie to change the process– that’s wrong. But anything short of that and legal is fair game– why not? The rest of the party does it all the time.
Secondly, Ron Paul does not have enough support to win the GOP caucus in NV. Of course, the fact that the major media outlets won’t talk about him because he is opposed to the corporatism which keeps them alive– makes that inevitable.
Lastly, Paul supporters can be too overbearing in their support.
But don’t write off all Paul supporters that way. I’m an attorney, I have given to GOP campaigns for over two decades, and I never miss an election. And I’m not alone. If the guys in colonial outfits and End the Fed t-shirts constitute 75% of the Paul movement and can be easily dismissed, then you’re forgetting the rest of us who do matter. We might be only 3-5% of the total GOP, but we’re a pretty important segment and we’re getting frustrated.
If the GOP continues to marginalize Paul or his progeny (not giving him fair time in elections, Fox News and company characterizing him as unelectable months before primary season, considering any view that’s not rooted in neocon politics as “liberal”) then I’ll shift my support to the Dems. There’s no point in sticking around if we’re not wanted and can’t make a difference. If the Republicans think we don’t deserve a voice we’ll take it someplace where it’s heard.
The truth is Ron Paul is the only person in any pole that can beat Obama.. He draws people off both parties and gets the Independent vote also.. The media does not want him because they are owned just like our government by Corporations, Wallstreet and big money.. I am a 4 tour disabled vet, I say supporting our troops is bringing them all home. Today another trained by us Afgani killed not only another one of our troops but the translator. Do what the constitution says and use our military to take back our boarder from the NARCO state of Mexico and its Drug Lord Owners.. Hell take it all the way to Panama before China is allowed to buy the Panama Canal.. Which is way more of a US security issue than anywhere else on the planet short of being on our land itself.. The only thing that saved us after Pearl Harbor was that canal. IF we were ever denied acsess due to a disagreement with China we would have to go all the way around S America which happens to be the most dangerous ocean on the planet.. Not to mention if the disabled the canal during or before a war or cold war.. This is very serious and no one is talking about it… jdozone@gmail.com
How do you think we got this country? We jacked it from a bunch of stuck up Brits who were disconnected from their people. How are we going to get the GOP? We are going to jack it from a bunch of stuck up Brit descendants who are disconnected from their people. How are we going to win? We are going to use the GOP as a vehicle to deliver Dr. Paul to the Presidency. Time for the old guard to step down and the new guard to clean up your mess.
Orrin,
You’ve got this folks described exactly right.
I’m in Idaho where Romney took over 60% of the caucus vote and Paul was third with less than 20%.
They are trying the exact same thing. All by being sneaky.
Last weekend they tried it in Utah — and got skunked.
The fundamental problem they have is that most Republicans don’t like Ron Paul.
I am reading this post with interest as we are looking at the same issue in my state. The way the political system is set up, a few people have ridiculous control over the political process. So are Ron Paul supporters ‘statists’ by attempting to become members of that elite club? First of all, your definition of statism is wrong. Statism is not voting for a different candidate than the mob selected. Statism is trying to control economic planning via government rather than free market. So actually, the Ron Paul movement is the opposite of statism.
I agree with the poster above. The caucus system is set up to reward participation so that people who are not informed and don’t make as much effort don’t get to be the representatives. Instead, they choose the representatives who they know are more informed than they are, even if those people support a different candidate. Popular votes are historically much easier to manipulate anyway, it is harder to manipulate a delegate count because those people know who they are. I do find your objections interesting though. The party establishment are the ones who set up these rules and have been profiting by them for years. Only now that the Ron Paul people have learned how to utilize them to best advantage are you crying foul. This is total hypocrisy.
If it makes you feel any better, in my state, and in most states, the ‘automatic delegates’ from the party are all Romney votes. Romney didn’t even bother campaigning to the people here, he just went straight to party officials because their vote counts more than us plebians.
One things is certain. I will lie my ass off when it comes to the crime bosses of the GOP.
Sounds like someone doesn’t have the stomach for hardball politics. I’m sure the priesthood will be more to your liking.
No stomach… makes sense that you would be gutless.
I didn’t see in the letter where it said they weren’t going to honor the bound delegates through the first round. In fact all the information I have seen is that the Ron Paul strategy was to be able to get the vote on the second round because with so many candidates there was no way Romney or anyone else was going to get to the magic number before the national convention.
That being said, in states where they are unbound they are only using the rules that were already in place. Rules that the GOP establishment I would imagine are going to be changing since they have been unsuccesful in fooling people that they can change the rules if they don’t have it go the way they think it should.
So other than to Troll Paulites what was the point here? They’ve systematically followed the rules laid down by the Republican party for their Caucus conventions.
If you don’t like that Paul supporters actually took the initiative and showed up to the party meetings and got themselves elected to positions of leadership then you dont like the democratic process, because that’s how it works buddy.
Given that if any of that 89% actually cared enough to show up for a 2 hour meeting to vote on delegates/party positions you can hardly blame the Paul campaign for being motivated.
As for the email, might I remind you that those delegates are Unbound, they are not required to vote with the ‘beauty contest” nor are they under any obligation to disclose ahead of time to tell a partisan polling service their plans.
Based on your accusation of the newly elected members of the party as “liars” because they arent honoring the promise of their predecessor, apparently Obama is a liar as well because he didnt honor Bush’s campaign promises that never got followed through on. That is the accusation your making.
The campaign has done nothing wrong, if people dont like the fact that a group of people can walk into politics and be heard, maybe they should get active themselves.
You have got to be kidding. Election fraud is on the Romney side, not the Paul side.
Amazing how Paul’s vote total from nevada was IDENTICAL to 2008— where as in EVERY other state he DOUBLED his 2008 %…. No fraud here move along before you get yourself an enhanced pat down.
Aslong as the delagates are free to vote their mind at convention. Then we all should get out of the mud slinging business.
What matters is how the people vote. Or thats what should matter.
I agree the letter was not that bad. Certainly no more than Politic ads GOP and democrates have run for years.
At least you’re man enough to let us “dishonest goofballs” post to your site what a POS we think you are.
It’s amazing how Mr. Orrin picks and chooses the comments he will respond to.
He responds the most offhand comments, while leaving aside entirely the ones that mention the fact that if Romney and the GOP establishment weren’t cheating SO much, we wouldn’t have to cheat too. You want someone to blame for the cheating? Blame yourself. And while we’re at it, I don’t see how any of that can be considered cheating. Ron Paul supporters aren’t obligated by law to tell the truth to the ROMNEY campaign. From what I gather, that poll isn’t even an official GOP poll, it’s a poll being conducted by the Romney campaign.
I bet if Ron Paul sent Romney supporters an e-mail asking them to identify themselves, no one would blame Romney if he instructed his supporters to lie.
I have never read such Irony in my life!!!! What you have described is a legitimate political maneuver Romney has been doing this whole primary season!!! To boot, the railroad job in Alaska, North Dakota, Missouri, Maine and now Washington state, where it simply isn’t a MEME but VIDEO evidence of voting fraud.
I would put links but you seem to delete the ones you can’t defend against so it seems moot now.
The Ron Paul supporters are following the rules to the T. That’s the difference. RP folks know the rules and tread light. Romney folks don’t care about the rules and do wtf they want.
Would you call someone ending a distract convention, claiming the chair voted to run it was “considered” a Paul supporter, thus making the entire convention a Paul convention, and the right insurance fees not payed. Then when asked specifically where the rule states that she wouldn’t answer and then runs off with the equipment count as fraud? She saw Paul was going to get a lot of delegates and tried ending it early (Failed they reconvened outside kept a quorum and voted a full slate of Paul delegates)
It may not be Nevada, but its Washington, and all caught on tape and just falls in line with what reports coming from across the country of Romney campaign disenfranchising Paul supporters.
what you really meant to say was that you got OWNED by that extremely loooooong list of election fraud AGAINST RON PAUL…so you deleted it in shame of what you have become.
I know LOL lets delete the ones I can’t defend and blame em on spam! LOL
Actually MR Orin, if you looked at each one you would just see that there are simply THAT MANY allegations of fraud AGAINST MITT 🙂
We can go over each one individually and dissect if it you like if you are worried about spam numbers? I am willing to give you at least 20 different links that verify fraud and we can discuss? are you open to that challenge?
Who needs Democrats? It is clear Republicans do a fine job destroying themsleves… As someone said in an earlier response, “I don’t have a dog in this fight…” but seriously, Ron Paul winning the Gneral Election!!!???? Come on now. It’s bad enough a president can win with less than a mjority vote, but for Paul to win, all of the states that placed him 3rd, 4th, etc…somehow they are wrong and there was that much fraud against him?! Come on… Hey, I like many of Paul’s ideas…he is wicked smart, but he does not have any real mass appeal. I applaud the passion of his supporters…it’s awesome. However, if he is really that great and can beat Obama, how did come he was often in 4th place in EVERY primary? Stop playing the part of the martyr. Oh, and before you lambast me with Romney fraud, I don’t like him either…he is an elitist that has no discernible connection to the “average American.” However, he has that mass (no pun intended) appeal…for better or worse. In reality, the Republicans are putting forth another half-hearted effort against Obama, and we will reap what we sow. Maybe you all should just unite, stop wagering on dreams that somehow the convention will magically reveal Paul was the victim of one of the largest conspiracies in modern election history, and figure out a way to salvage a Republican majority in the House and stop massive and frightening Obama-inspired socialism from sweeping the nation over the next four years. The Paul supporters on this thread sound like the kid who was picked last for dodgeball…get over it…or run on a new ticket. Talk about sour grapes! Sheesh!
Orrin,
I appreciate your perspective, but would you at least be consistent and identify Sue Lowden and the NVGOP power brokers who illegally shut down the 2008 state caucus “thugs” who “lie, cheat, and steal,” too?
Your arguments about accurately representing the votes of Nevadans are compelling, but I also sympathize with the 2008 caucus-goers who were railroaded by a corrupt state GOP. Seeing as how they can’t go back in time and hold a legitimate, legal caucus, they probably feel that snagging all the delegates this time around is acceptable.
Perhaps the state GOP (or maybe the legislature, even) just needs to codify that delegations to national conventions must be proportional. Off-hand comments from the dysfunctional state party aren’t exactly binding.
Orrin Johnson:
“First, support simply ISN’T strong in Nevada – the vote established that beyond a reasonable doubt. ”
Where the rules are followed, Ron Paul clearly has the most support in Nevada.
See you in Sparks.
Wait wait wait… are you saying most Republicans tell pollsters the TRUTH? I thought we all lied to pollsters, just to mess with them!
Holy crap! Does that mean Donald Trump was *actually the frontrunner* for a couple weeks last year? No. No way. Not my party.
Anyway, it sounds like Bunce tried to handle the pollsters politely, by giving them no information, and only decided to tell them a lie when they kept harassing him. I wouldn’t have done that, because I don’t think it’s *ever* moral to lie, even if the Nazis are at the door asking if you’re hiding Jews in the back room… but, as lies go, Mr. Bunce’s is among the least morally offensive lies I’ve ever heard.
As for proportional representation, a rule that can be changed is, by definition, not a promise. I’m sure the Paul supporters will follow the rule if they can’t get it changed. If they can get it changed, it’s perfectly fine. That’s politics. I just watched a Minnesota district convention refuse to allow a single Paul person onto the state central delegation, even though Paul people were 40% of the convention. Oh, well. They played by the rules. That’s politics. If you don’t like party rules, you can either take over the party (which is the Paul strategy), start your own (which is how the Republicans got started in 1856 after the Whigs blew up), join the Democrats (which, we can all agree, is crazy talk), or take your ball and go home.
Well from what I’ve seen the GOP started the dishonesty by ending elections before they start. Is it really wrong to combat dishonesty with dishonesty? If the GOP had there way they would outlaw all Ron Paul supporters from the delegate elections so they could make sure their chosen idiot is elected. I see nothing wrong with this if the GOP was honest to begin with these measures would not have to be taken.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pxTkS24gXQ
lying and cheating is the only possible way Ron Paul can even come close to a nomination. The vast majority of voters laugh at the loon and his supporters. There is a reason he hasn’t won a state yet and is still behind Newt in delegates.
All Ron Paul supporters are, are just liberals who really really want legal drugs.
I often visit the Ron Paul forums for a good laugh. I highly suggest it to anyone out there who wants a good chuckle. It is the same thing over and over again. They convince themselves that Ron Paul has such huge support by the crowds he draws and then they always get disappointed when votes actually take place. Every day of a new primary it always begins the same with them so excited to see the results. And when the results come in it is again always the same. Utter disappointment and then calling voters idiots because they don’t share the same screwed up ideology of Paulbots.
If you go to the Ron Paul forums you will see a large percentage of posters there are not even American. That always throws up a red flag. That is like NY Jets fans picking who the Patriots starting QB will be. Like I have always said. Let the rest of the world vote on the US president and then pick the opposite candidate. Foreigners will always pick the weakest candidate. They want to compete with the USA. They hate the USA being the dominate force and will always go with the candidate who brings the USA down to their level.
I like how Paul supporters try and claim Paul is the only true conservative yet most of them switched their party affiliation from Democrat to Republican just so they can vote in the Primary. They wouldn’t know conservative if it hit them upside the head with a 2 by 4.
Dada writes: “They wouldn’t know conservative if it hit them upside the head with a 2 by 4.”
Would you consider Mitt Romney a true conservative?
So many of these comments are hilarious.
Ron Paul is only losing because of fraud.
Ron Paul is being cheated.
Everyone else is cheating.
Yeah, right. All of the examples are minor ones. When you have 50 states and thousands of counties, districts, etc., the so-called examples are pretty minor.
The bottom line is that Ron Paul is a fringe figure, unsuppor
Interesting. In my state, the establishment GOP changes its rules at whim. But if Ron Paul supporters play the system then it provokes anger. People like Steve above claim that Paul is a fringe figure, but in polls Paul does better than any other GOP candidate with the largest voting block: Independent voters.
But, let’s take a look at ideology. Paul is in line the vast majority of the US population on foreign policy, bailouts, the Federal Reserve and much more. That makes the GOP fringe, not Paul. While we’re at it, we should take note of more hypocrisy by the status quo GOP. They claim to be for small government. Really?
Every single candidate except for Paul vowed to expand government spending. How is that small government.? The fact is the GOP is run by it’s own version of fans on big government. While they claim to reject the notion of forcing others to pay for their beliefs, their words and actions are at odds with the reality. Both the GOP and Democrats are exposed by Paul for their duplicity.
If Paul and Paul supporters are as ineffective as claimed, why is there such obvious chagrin? Truth is those that are ardent supporters of a failed and corrupt system , like the above commentators, routinely use verbose arguments in a futile effort to blunt a growing consensus. It won’t work and it smacks of fear.
As if lying to a pollster is some dasterdly underhanded trick. You NeoCons area all alike. You get mad it is looks like someone is doing something that you didn’t think of. Every little trick that you guys pull is pure gold to you but if we win by following the rules to a T then you get Pissed Off. Hey look man get over it. I will lie to any pollster I want. There is no law and they don’t official represent anyone. As a matter of fact they are hiding who is paying for this poll according to you. You think your dealing with children here? OWS. Look man I am 50 years old. Your a fool.
Orrin and the rest of you fake-ass conservatives, Whatever this year’s result, the fact remains that the GOP is about dead in the water as a valid political party. And this is exactly why the libertarians are going to tak over. Now you may say the Paulists have no support, but if that were the case you wouldn’t have written this blog, right? Whether Obama or Romney wins the election, they both lose. The libertarian revolution is here, and it will double in size at the very least over the next four years, then double again in eight years. We will NOT be defeated and we WILL restore the republic and take it away from ALL you big money statists, democrat and republican alike! RON PAUL 2012
Ron Paul is a pathetic lying cheating dishonest dried up old man who hasn’t been able to accomplish anything during his 100 years in congress. The only successful thing he has done is figure out how to mass hypnotize a bunch of losers into programmed minions. His groupies have no other life and are able to dedicate multiple hours to their master and learn how to lie and take over conventions. Nothing to be proud of.
wahhhh wahhhh….that is all I see when I read this post..haha you are such a blubbering baby. Since when has politics ever been honest? He is organized and not doing anything against the rules, so I hope the”good doctor” keeps on making you upset for months to come, maybe even wet your bed when he wins the nomination.
You’re a fraud. Politics is politics. It’s funny when people like you start crying when the Ron Paul campaign is beating you at your own dirty game. Ron Paul is the only candidate with character and integrity.
Romney supports just about everything that got this country into the mess we’re in today – so put a sock in it.
The Establishment Media has been force-feeding everyone BUT Ron Paul down our throats since the beginning of this fraud we call and election. The People are waking up and sick of it… We’re seeing this Revolution at the Caucuses.
RON PAUL 2012!
Well, as a delegate to the Clark County convention I can say that the Paul supporters did outright lie. Those running for the Executive Committee denied being Paul supporters when asked by individual delegates during the breaks. They also threw up procedural delay after procedural delay in order to get other delegates to leave in frustration, and then tried to proceed conducting business when there was no longer a quorum. I always liked Dr. Paul – but these tactics are shameful.
Wow Orrin you are a TWIT ! I vollunteered at CC caucus , DR. Paul came in 2nd at MY location also he won Nye and Esmeralda . I spoke at my precinct meeting for Dr. Paul and was rebutted by a Romney supporter who had already spoken for Mitt and should NOT have been aloud to speak AGAIN but she was the precinct chair . So who’s cheating ? There were 1900 delegates spots avalible and 300 went unfilled . Why didn’t the Mitt people show up ? Why was the CC convention 2/3s Ron Paul supporters ?Also if YOU think we’re CHEATING by working the system as it is designed then that just shows how little you KNOW !
LOL @ this article! What a load of garbage! There has been more trickery and deceit AGAINST the Ron Paul campaign than the GOP has ever had combined!
The truth stands erect! Mitt Romney is a progressive! He supports unconstitutional wars! He will not cut any spending! He supported abortion now doesn’t. He has flipped flopped so many times! He just tells his audience what they want to hear. All I ever hear from Mitt supporters is that he’s a good businessman. Yeah, so hard to be one when your father is already loaded.
Mitt is a horrible politician and cares nothing about the Constitution. He would sign NDAA?! Can you say Nazi? What a coward!
Ron Paul is like our Founding Fathers. Mitt Romney could never compare to Ron Paul!
kmax, Mitt supporters are just scared! They thought from the beginning that they had this won but now that the truth is coming out they are scared to death. The Paul campaign and supporters are not doing anything illegal. They are following all the rules and because they are educated and not lazy they are scooping up delegates. The uneducated and lazy Mitt supporters think Mitt’s got it in the bag. This is good for us for while they sit around praising Mitt, Paul supporters are ACTUALLY winning states. Iowa anyone?
Mitt could never win against Obama. Ron Paul would easily.
The GOP tried to game the primaries by making the rules complex so that Romney would win. They didn’t count on Dr. Paul and his supporters being smart enough to figure it out. The Paul campaign has not hidden it’s strategy in fact they have been bragging about it since the primary began so there was no deception. However there have been several instances of voter fraud uncovered against both the GOP and Romney supporters. Now that it is becoming clear that the Paul campaigns strategy is working and he has many more delegates that anyone thought the Romney camp wants to cry about a primary they clearly tried to cheat. No to mention the media which has refused to cover Dr. Paul and has minimized his campaign right from the start. Do your homework before posting this kind of garbage.
I am a registered Democrat. I supported Perot in 92, voted for Dole in 96, Bush in 2000, Kerry in 04, and Obama in 08. I think I’m a fair representation of many voters in their 30’s except I am also a veteran. I like many of Ron Paul’s ideas, but terribly dislike the way he wants to implement them. I am fiscally conservative and have seen BOTH Democrats and Republicans waste money and blame the other side. I know the real problem is that corporations dictate to congress what laws and regulations get passed not which party is worse. I am socially liberal and am saddened that abortion rights, civil rights, gay marriage rights, and many rights of those who aren’t socially conservative are being taken away by Congressional and Senate Republicans as well as by state level Republicans. I do not agree with President Obama on many things, but I agree with the rest of my options less. I am, like many of my fellow American voters in my demographic, sick of the divisive and hateful rhetoric of ALL sides. I’ll be voting for President Obama again. I have watched a Republican party consistently block policy, argue against positions they previously supported, concentrate on meaningless issues such as abortion and Union support that we as a nation had previously agreed upon, and flat out lie or distort many “facts” to herd their sheep. Many of us will be voting for President Obama, and are emboldened when we hear the far right crazies talk about how President Obama will imprison us all and lead us to a Red Dawn of American communism, or still think he was born in Kenya, or a Muslim or marxist, its sad and ridiculous. But thank you for showing the rest of us why so many young people and women run away from the GOP. Enjoy your bickering while President Obama beats Romney by 7 points… I call 53 – 46 – and well aware Ron Paul will get roughly 1%.
I know that right of privacy is a mute point in this day and age of NDAA, expanding exec powers, legal illegal wiretaps, and the internet under constant attack by the FBI/ CIA all in the name of security, but I have to say that voting, or the act of, is supposed to be confidential. We should not have pollsters calling us and asking us personal and private info! Weather Romney got access to the info legally or not is not what is at stake….. our freedoms are. You sir seem like a person who finds his self worth and importance in the amount of drama you cause. Nobody took an oath to give out personal accurate info to strangers…… so keep complaining. As we know and have proof of, it seems Romney had his guys pretend to be Ron Paul supporters, and we have evidence of him paying people to show up at his rallies in Fl. Another thing is the fact that someone proposed to take him before an ethics community for handing out sub sandwiches for votes…. Hmmmm, I wonder who is really cheating?
Now for my RP peeps out their who may read this….. We have to win with honor…. continue using the rules, and work hard….. we have so much more to gain than just an election…. we have a country to save. Even if that means saving it from itself….. And the ppl like this guy. Hold the coarse and we will win. Don’t let ppl like this ruffle our feathers and put us on the defensive….. But fight with honor! Good going Nv… you made the cut….. Ron Paul 2012/ expect this.
[…] vote for Paul or no one, and even if they don’t, the Paul campaign already has been caught urging supporters to lie about their true plans. Any candidate for public office will assume at this point that Paul supporters are unreliable at […]
Johnson says (in his guest blog): “Let’s review. The purpose of a political party is to help candidates from that party win elections. Period. ”
Well, that would be the problem. That’s how you end up with nonconservatives like Trey Grayson, Dede Scozzafava, Scott Brown, and Richard Lugar. Did I forget to mention Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins? Or John “Spineless” Boehner, who only supports decreasing actual government size until it looks like he might lose?
In my view, a political party is NOT about electing members of that party. It is about establishing a clear set of positions and ideals, including the ones that are non-negotiable, and then supporting candidates who demonstrably advocate that agenda. There are plenty of bad “R” candidates out there, and the GOP has been very quick to embrace them if necessary to put an “R” in the win column. That attitude is selfish, unprincipled, and ultimately failure-prone.
By the way, until I find a reliable source showing Bunce accepting responsibility for that supposed letter, I will believe it to be a fake.
Those tactics have been loudly and explicitly denounced by Paul.
[…] Ron Paul Supporters Join Joe Miller to Take Over Alaska Republican Party | Alaska Dispatch Nevada: Lie, Cheat, and Steal – It’s the Ron Paul Way! – First Principles Oklahoma: GOP Establishment makes a mockery of the democratic process in Oklahoma – Manchester […]
It’s not like Romney fake dialed delegates and printed up extra delegate badges to pad the lack of interest and support they had at the conventions.
Heck it was all on film how the RP delagation have been treated. Whiny babies? The old guard GOP that has lost itself needs RON’s message. It is much different than Obamas..