The goal of my last post on the Ron Paul Campaign’s exhortations to lie, cheat, and steal was to shine as bright a light as possible on their dishonorable and ultimately self destructive tactics. I’m not alone amongst principled conservatives – Ned Barnett in particular has been doing yeoman’s work in ferreting out the hypocrisy of these perpetually aggrieved, self-entitled, ends-justify-the-means thugs. I’m glad to say those efforts seem to have been successful, and judging from my comments section explosion, there are a lot of upset Paul fans out there who are spending a lot of time trying to intimidate me into silence while unintentionally helping make my point.
You could argue that the Paul campaign’s delegate strategy is odious and unethical, but that at least they’re “playing by the rules.” (Paul supporters are the first to scream bloody murder if another candidate plays the insider rules to their advantage, but when the Paul folks do it they’re JUST like the Founding Fathers (cue eye roll here).)
But then I saw this article from Ray Hagar, in which the Paul Campaign (not some random supporter, the state campaign chair) all but announced they would be ignoring even that fig leaf of legitimacy.
[Carl] Bunce, [chairman of Congressman Paul’s Nevada campaign,] said the campaign will play by the rules but can’t answer for every Ron Paul supporter who is also a national delegate.
“People have a choice,” Bunce said about a first-ballot decision. “It is their vote. When people show up to vote, they vote their conscience, right?
When reminded of the RNC rules that apply to the first ballot vote, Bunce questions the binding rule.
“What is the punishment?” Bunce asked rhetorically, referring to the binding rule for the first ballot. “It (switching votes) is not something that I condone. There are a lot of rules, RNC, state bylaws. But the binding is kind of superficial as well.
First of all, if the word “but” appears after the phrase “I don’t condone that,” then you ARE, in fact, condoning whatever it is that you’re talking about. And remember, this is from the same guy who specifically urged his fellow travelers to be dishonest in a previous, meant-to-be-secret E-mail.
But it’s that last paragraph that’s really distressing. When you muse openly about the lack of consequences and suggest that the wrong thing is really the right thing, don’t tell me you aren’t giving a wink and a nudge. The Ron Paul campaign, which came in third place in this state, is fully signalling, “Our people are going to vote for Ron Paul, and there’s nothing you can do about it.”
The tacit support for violating every election rule in place in order to manufacture victory for a guy who can’t win an election is unmistakable. And in doing so, the Paul Campaign is attempting to steal an election just as surely as if they stuffed ballot boxes back in February.
(Remember, this was the same crowd who went apoplectic (sometimes quite dishonestly so) over the mere possibility that registering new Republicans on the day of the caucus was terrible because it introduced the remotest possibility of “voter fraud”. Apparently actively working to subvert the will of Nevada Republican voters is only bad when not done in the service of the Cult of Personality that is the Paul campaign.)
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Incidentally, there in all likelihood WOULD be consequences. It’s my understanding from talking to people familiar with RNC rules that Nevada could lose half – if not more – of its delegates should this cheating attempt be carried out in Tampa.
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My post got linked around nationally (thanks, Politico!), and as a result, the Paul faithful came of of the woodwork to punish me for having a dissenting viewpoint (gee, thanks, Politico.)
The comments are generally a case study in rationalizing bad acts. Mostly, they suggest that the system is hopelessly corrupt, so they feel justified in cheating in return. The 80% of the Republicans who didn’t vote for Paul (and who would be necessary to win if Paul somehow pulled off a nomination at the convention) are endlessly derided as sheep-like neocon RINO shills, or other such nonsense. In any event, they find endless ways to justify in their minds why my vote (and the vast vast vast majority of GOP voters’ votes) shouldn’t count at all.
Great. So we replace the current corruption with new corruption?
You want, but can’t earn, so you’re gonna take. I tell you what, guys – if you don’t want me to say you’re acting like a bunch of leftist revolutionaries or self-entitled Occupiers, then stop acting like leftist revolutionaries or self-entitled Occupiers.
Look – if we truly are to build a new political paradigm that breaks the old patterns that have led to the mess America finds itself in now, it has to be built on a foundation of honor and integrity, and it has to earn popular support.
Is Romney the savior of America? Hardly, and I’ve made quite plain on this blog that Romney just isn’t a conservative. But he is a “fix it” guy, and he’ll at least slow the bleeding for a bit while support for real reform builds, if the allegedly liberty minded don’t completely self-destruct and discredit the entire movement along with them, that is.
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For the record, I would be just as outraged if Ron Paul won the caucus vote and some other candidate tried to stack the delegates while telegraphing a refusal to honor the outcome of the vote. Paul supporters certainly are, in the rare cases (like North Dakota) where Paul bested Romney.
I tell you what, fellas. I’ll agree that you should have proportional, binding representation of your delegates in North Dakota (although there the state party chose NOT to bind their delegates), if you’ll agree to abide by the vote proportions EVERYWHERE ELSE.
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The other excuse I often see is some version of, “Hey – if you were dedicated enough to have your voice count, you’d show up and be a delegate. Romney supporters just don’t care enough to be delegates, so therefore, they can be ignored.”
Let me explain why I find this, of all the excuses, so particularly disgusting and immoral.
Two weeks ago, my wife and I had a new baby. Knowing the little guy would be here, and further knowing I would have family in town to meet him, I did not put my name in for consideration to be a delegate to the state GOP convention in Sparks next week. Certainly I had put in my fair share (and then some!) of volunteer time with the party, and I had carefully considered each candidate in the runup to our caucuses.
A couple of years before I had also found myself elected to the state Central Committee after having complained about the way the 2008 caucuses and conventions had been handled, and I made a point to do what I could to avert a repeat of that craziness. During one of the Central Committee planning meetings for the caucuses, I was outspoken about the need to bind our delegates to the caucus vote, specifically to obviate any purpose for any faction within the party to “take over” the convention or try to push delegates who didn’t represent Nevada GOP voters. I also argued against “winner take all,” noting that less well funded candidates in small, early primary states can use those pledged delegates to build momentum, even if they can’t win outright due to funding issues or the lack of media exposure. (That’s right. I argued in favor of that specifically for the benefit of Ron Paul’s campaign.)
The Central Committee overwhelmingly agreed with me, and those rules were set in place.
So – I got involved, help solidify rules which would address my concerns, helped build a consensus behind those rules in order to get them passed, and then spent hundreds of volunteer hours away from my family to execute the plan.
If Ron Paul or any of his supporters think I am insufficiently dedicated, let me know. I’ll share some phrases with you that I learned in the Navy.
But even if I hadn’t done that, it would still be an outrage. Most voters don’t have that sort of time to dedicate, for a whole host of reasons. Republican voters were explicitly told – and therefore believed – that their votes would be binding on the national delegates, and that the party would follow its own rules. Do you Ron Paul folks think they will ever trust or support you after they found out you didn’t, and cheated your way to “victory”? Again, how in the hell would you ever expect to win in the general?
You can’t even win a single Republican primary. What are you going to do in November? Try to crash the Electoral College?
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Ultimately, it will be up to our intrepid new state party chair Michael McDonald to ensure the rules are followed, and that no delegate who goes to Tampa to represent the will of Nevada Republicans is a cheater. What’s scary is that the Ron Paul supporters who largely “took over” the party were responsible for McDonald being elected.
They bought him. They think they own him. They’re counting on that purchase to clear their way for a full, rules-disregarding Ron Paul delegation to go to Tampa.
Here’s McDonald’s chance to prove me wrong about my opinion of his integrity.
Your post sounds like just so much whining.
I don’t approve of breaking rules. But it isn’t entirely clear if the states CAN bind their delegates. You have that pesky and oddly worded Rule 38 in the RNC rules. I can’t debate it, but it very well may bar binding your delegates. If that is true, then RP supporters might in fact be within their rights to deny their vote to Romney, even if the state attempts to bind them.
[Even if this is somehow true (and it’s not), it’s still dishonest and dishonorable. The people who voted in primaries and caucuses had an expectation that their delegates would follow their votes. If we were voting for delegates to exercise their independent judgments, then the names of the delegates (rather than the candidates) would have been on our ballots. Once you betray them, what makes you think they’ll support you in November? — OJ]
That aside, you can complain all you want about following through with the rules and losing after the non-binding straw polls. The fact is that the RNC has the power to make their own rules. If you don’t want this approach to winning the nomination to work, then write your rules to prevent it.
[Apparently “reading” or at least “comprehending” is not your strong suit. I actually did (with the support of the state Central Committee) write those rules, specifically to prevent this nonsense. — OJ]
And oh by the way, you could have rules to have votes counted in public. You could have an independent organization validates your voting machines, and keep them secure through its use in the election.
[Now here’s where you’re just a lying liar. We didn’t use voting machines in Nevada. Either you knew that and are insinuating otherwise in order to manufacture a “fraud” excuse for your own cheating, or you didn’t know and made it up anyway. Either way, it’s clear you aren’t from Nevada. Again – Ron Paul people represented a plurality of Nevada’s vote counters, and campaign observers were in every counting room. Any claim of fraud is just an old fashioned lie, as you have helped demonstrate. What else is the Paul campaign lying about? — OJ]
You can instruct all RNC officials to follow the rules.
But in the end, we will see how this plays out. If your sides ultimately loses, you will have to choose if you are going to support the Republican Candidate or not. If your guy wins, well, many folks will sit on their hands, or even vote for Obama. We are not as confident as you are that Romney represents a significant difference from Obama. In some ways (on civil rights and war) Romney might be worse.
[If you really believe this, then you are so ignorant of history, facts, philosophy, economics, etc. that there is no hope for you. And again (and I’m serious here, I’d like an answer) what makes you think you can get the support of the vast, vast, vast majority of Republicans in November who would feel betrayed even if you were to steal the nomination?
Thanks, though, for complimenting and supporting the contentions in my post so vividly. — OJ]
tl;dl wording an editorial as if it were fact.
The fact of the matter is that we are playing by the rules. Any other delegate for any other candidate could be doing what we’re doing, but they’re not. And that’s going to be Mitten’s downfall, his supporters think he’s already won, they don’t know how the system works
Hi Orrin –
I mistakenly thought the title of this blog entry was from the point of view of the establishment GOP and addressing Ron Paul supporters with the GOP declaring, “so what if we cheat” — as was the modi operandi in ’08 perpetrated by Beers, Lowden, Settlemeyer et al. Instead, it was the other way around, which gives this piece delicious irony.
Orin, maybe the reason you cause such distress is your ability to insult everybody who disagrees with your view point.
I dont condone cheating by any side BUT the fact that the Romney campaign manipulated Florida, and tried to do it in Nevada to benifit his campaign you seem to over look. The RNC also overlooked and we have yet for them to take away half of Floridas delegates per the rules for going early. So this sounds like the “Kettle calling the Pot Black” What goes around comes around!
Laurel,
You examples are considerably off.
Florida held its primary early. The RNC penalty was a reduction in delegates from 100 to 50. The decision to jump the gun was made by Florida lawmakers, not the Romney campaign months ago.
Nevada — I presume you are referring to one of two things. Four years ago the GOP chair shut the convention down. But, that had little to do with Mitt Romney (since he had already been defeated by McCain). The other possibility is you might be pointing out the fact that Romney walloped your candidate in the caucuses this year. Winning in an open vote ain’t cheating.
Ron Paul is a fringe figure, more of a curiosity than a serious candidate. He hasn’t won one primary yet or caucus.
Mr. Johnson is simply pointing to Paul’s current effort geared around manipulating the delegate selection process even though almost every state requires delegates to follow the primary or caucus results. The anti-democratic aspect of that seems to escape the Paul supporters.
My favorite thing is to read how many contests the Paulites think they are winning. Right now it looks like they’ll get Minnesota and maybe Louisiana. Even if they were to get the other three or four states they think they might win, that would mean 44+ states had voted against Ron Paul.
Bottom line . . Ron Paul is going into retirement, not the White House.
Why do you assume my candidate is Ron Paul?
I was merely pointing out What goes around, comes around.
Laurel, you let paranoia eliminate the caucus as a party building tool on the merest, most distant possibility that “voter fraud” could take place if we registered new Republicans on the day of the Caucus. (How’s that working out for the GOP, by the way?) Now ACTUAL election fraud is going on right in front of you (or, if you take the Paul line of reasoning, the caucus vote doesn’t matter at all), and you shrug and say, “What goes around comes around”?!?!
Jesus. What’s it like to be completely untethered by principle?
If the Paul camp doesn’t like being called liars, cheaters, or thieves, then I urge them not to lie, cheat, or steal. That’s not “insulting people with different viewpoints,” that’s holding political folks accountable for bad behavior. If accountability is too sour a taste for you to handle, then I suppose you just aren’t the virtuous warrior for liberty you like to see yourself as – rather you’re just another opportunistic, ends-justify-the-means sellout who will sacrifice any principle or promise for short term political gain.
How truly sad, and tragic. It will be my kids who pay the price for your shortsightedness. THAT is why I’m “distressed.”
Mr. Johnson-
A friend at work suggested that I read your blog and you have done a greeat job calling out the misbehavior and thievery of the Paultards. Yes, Paultards, when only 20% of the Republican caucus-goers vote for your candidate and you try to get all the delegates to the RNC and your state Chairman asks you to lie, that IS thievery. Actually, when you look at the Republican population of the state as a whole Ron Paul gets less than 10% of the vote. Hopefully enough people read your blog and wise up to the stupid tricks of these Paulestinians and kick their butts at the State Convention. Keep up the good work, Mr. Johnson.
John G
If the job of the delegates is merely to parrot the poll result, then why have a delegate process at all? Delegates do not go to their conventions as unmindful messenger boys. They go to exercise their judgment.
The state delegates have the full ability to vet the national delegates they choose. Once a delegate gets to the national convention, they are bound by the national rules which allow for delegates to vote their consciences at the national convention on all ballots.
If a national delegate does a poor job of representing the state he will answer for it on the state level. So far, though, Ron Paul supporters are doing pretty well on the state and county levels.
Orrin Johnson wrote: “Ron Paul supporters who largely ‘took over’ the party were responsible for McDonald being elected. They bought him. They think they own him. They’re counting on that purchase”
Did you feel the people who elected you to the state central committee bought you? Were you purchased, too?
Lynette,
The national rules bind each state’s delegates to the state rules filed with the RNC last October.
Nevada’s rules require following the caucus results. That is why the RNC’s counsel put out the letter that overturning Nevada’s rules at this date could result in disallowing the entire delegation.
The RNC does not bar this. They bar the unit rule which means on all votes — besides President — a delegation must vote identically (primarily platform and convention rules).
By the way, these rules have been in place for several decades.
Steve, national rules favor delegates voting their own consciences, but I acknowledge that it doesn’t mean the RNC isn’t going to close ranks and do what it can to silence Ron Paul’s supporters among the state delegations, contrary to their own rules.
A new wrinkle to this situation is yesterday’s RNC letter to state GOP Chairman Michael McDonald threatening not to seat Nevada delegates in Tampa unless we vet each nominee for national delegate to determine which candidate they support. Is there any precedent for this type of micromanagement from the RNC?
And while Ralston and Johnson are so concerned, for the moment, about following the rules, following the edict set out in the RNC’s letter to McDonald would violate the current convention rules.
Looks like Romney is truly worried about coming up short of the 1144 on the first ballot, after all, all arguments about the selective observance of rule 38 aside, any national delegate can abstain on any vote in Tampa.
See you in Sparks.
Oh goody. Now the Ringmaster himself, Ron Paul, is coming to the convention. What was going to be a sideshow will now be a circus.
Send in the clowns…….
Lynette,
Nothing new . .
The RNC has required previously filed state rules to be followed for decades (I personally know back into the 1980s). Failure to follow those rules has been, for decades, grounds for a challenge before the credentials committee.
Rules like Nevada have been interpreted in the past to allow campaigns to pre-clear delegates. I know of incidents in 1988, 1992 and 1996.
As to Romney, I don’t any of this is that important. Protecting the votes of individual voters in the various states is worth an effort.
The binding rule in Nevada is new. So it would have been in other states, right, Steve? What were the circumstances behind the 88, 92, and 96 incidents?
I know of no nominees, in either camp, who say they will not comply with a binding rule, if the binding rule stands. So how would Phillippe justify treating bound delegates from Nevada differently than bound delegates in other states who have already been chosen to go to Tampa?
IThe difference is Nevada is it is the first state to discuss changing rules midstream. Definite no-no.
In the past, campaigns challenged delegates elected who weren’t theirs. First Bush, Dole, did.
Lynette, it’s because the RNC thinks you’re liars (because your state campaign chair urged supporters to lie) and they (we) don’t trust you because you have zero respect or honor for the 81% of Nevada Republicans who don’t support your candidate. And Paul supporters are talking openly now about disregarding the binding rule either just by ignoring it, by illegitimately trying to change it mid-stream, or by “abstaining” instead of actually voting for the candidate you’re supposed to be bound to vote for. In other words, when you say “I know of no nominee…who say they will not comply with the binding rule…”, all of the rest of us know you’re just not telling the truth.
Here’s the bottom line – you can wrap yourself in whatever interpretation of the rules you think you can in order to look yourself in the mirror and pretend you have any integrity. That’s fine – it’s your soul. But most Republican voters in the country think their votes should count for something, and if a losing candidate “wins,” they will feel betrayed, stolen from, and will NOT support you or your candidate. You will be shocked – shocked – when those hundreds of thousands of NON-Paulers aren’t as impressed with your tortured explanation of relative dedication and delegate philosophy – they will just be PISSED that you ignored their vote.
(Just imagine how YOU would feel if Paul won most of the caucuses, but Romney won the nomination because he manipulated the insider rules to get delegates. You would be talking about theft and tyranny, not begrudgingly defending Romney’s superior ability to organize or to follow the letter of the rules in violation of their spirit – and you would be right.)
Romney wasn’t MY first choice. But my first choice (and second and third) either didn’t run or dropped out of the race. And quite frankly, I think Romney has a lot to offer in this election – anyone who really thinks there is no daylight between Romney and Obama are either delusional or dishonest.
Now it’s time to stop spitting in the face of the 90% of Republican primary/caucus voters who have heard from your candidate and chosen NOT to vote for him (which may have something to do with they dishonorable actions of his supporters or the fact that he’s been in Congress as long as I’ve been alive and has zero actual legislative/leadership accomplishments to show for it). Take a deep breath, think of something more than your immediate wants, and consider the long-term, broader implications of your choices and actions. Get on board for the big win, or we WILL blame you for the next four years of Obama.
Orrin,
I am glad you are talking about this. I have been trying for months to talk to someone about this with no luck. I even talked to Romney’s regional and national campaign managers. After trying I eventually gave up and didn’t even attend the state convention.
Funny thing is the Ron Paul people are constantly screaming “constitution” and yet they are the ones who basically want to take away someones fundamental right to vote. By changing the rules to allow Ron Paul delegates at the convention over the amount he actually received votes for is the same as taking away someones vote.
A straw poll is not a binding vote so the 81% of the voters could stick around and do what others did. All according to the rules.
Kongored —
The caucus is not a straw vote. That usage is exactly what is so despicable about the Ron Paul campaign.
A straw vote is a poll conducted at an event, such as the Ames Poll run by the Iowa GOP the fall before the caucuses. It is a chance for the campaigns to show their organizational skills.
Caucuses and primaries are for the purposes of determining the allocation of delegates. In the vast majority of states, they are binding.
The Ron Paul folks keep claiming the voters input is merely a “straw poll”. By that same logic, November elections are merely a straw poll.
The bottom line is that the vast majority of GOP voters and participants have flatly rejected Ron Paul as a loony, out-of-the-GOP-mainstream, fringe figure.
The efforts in the conventions to overturn the voters’ will is beyond the pale. It is a direct violation of everything the U.S. Constitution, the Founders, and U.S. history represents.
Shame. Shame.
Frankly, Ron Paul voters and supporters scare the hell out of me. I mean, Dr. Paul has some brilliant ideas, but to be subversive, underhanded, and deny the power of the vote based on YOUR conscious…that is insidious. Seriously, he can’t beat Obama. I am not even sure Romney can, but the longer you live your pipe dream that Ron Paul can pull this out of the sewer, the longer YOU purposely divide, and the less chance Romney has to mount any sort of fight. Get on board! Like the Rolling Stones swing, “You can’t always get what you want…”
The events at the Nevada GOP convention the past two days have been a travesty.
The voters of Nevada who are being swept aside will punish for this.
The proper response is for the RNC credentials committee to deny seating the Nevada delegation entirely. That will send a strong message that state rules/RNC rules/the will of the voters must be respected.
I, personally, believe the Ron Paul delegates won fair & square … they showed up.
However, Orrin, while you state you worked hard to make Nevada a proportional, binding, state … I am almost certain (I don’t have the minutes) that it was either Carl Bunce or Richard Bunce who actually MADE THE MOTION to bind the delegates proportionally, and it was won overwhelmingly. They even went so far as to designate a minimum threshold (i.e., 4% increments based on 25 delegates).
So, if this is true (and I recall them standing up and making the motion), they are advocating violating the rule they made. Pot meet kettle.
Oh, and I believe RNC Rule 38 (the Unit Vote) is trumped by RNC Rule 15.